Kathleen Ann Goonan Omnivisions On-Line Interview

Kathleen Ann Goonan
Omnivisions On-Line Interview
December 18, 1997^*

Jim Freund:
Hello, and welcome to OMNI Visions. Tonight at 10:00 EST, our guest will be Kathleen Ann Goonan, author of Queen City Jazz, The Bones of Time, and the sequel to the first title, Mississippi Blues, newly released from Tor. There are also some 20 or so short stories published in just about every major sf magazine. The show will take the form of an interview for about the first 45 minutes, after which we'll open the forum for you to join us and participate.

Jim Freund:
Kathy Goonan's writing invoked something for me that few sf books in recent year have managed -- a sense of wonder, in the classic tradition. Yet tradition may be the wrong word for someone with such a strong, =new= voice. Be sure to join us at 10:00 PM EST.

Jim Freund:
Well, it's 10:00 PM, so time to get started. Are you there Kathy?

Kathleen Goonan:
Hi, Jim. I'm here.

Jim Freund
Hi Kathleen! It's great to have you here...

Kathleen Goonan:
It's great to be here.

Jim Freund:
...Let's jump right in. Could you give us a précis of Mississippi Blues, and what parts of Queen City Jazz that are necessary to follow it?

Kathleen Goonan:
In Mississippi Blues, some characters from QCJ and some new ones take a nanotech-spiked trip down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers. Although reading QCJ is probably helpful, there ought to be enough info in MB to get rolling.

Jim Freund:
How would you describe the "world" of these books (without giving away too much)?

Kathleen Goonan:
That's kind of brief, but it's the main story. It has a lot of antecedents, such as Huckleberry Finn, and a lot of musical background, and a lot of factual information about the rivers and towns. In this post nanotech holocaust era, things are quite different than today.

Patrick O'Leary:
Hi Jim. Hi, Kathy. I wanted to ask about the way you incorporate music into your novels. Queen City Jazz--A lovely Book -is full of it. Is music important to you as inspiration? Mood? Art?

Kathleen Goonan:
All three, Patrick. Music is one of the most important aspects of my environment. I grew up listening to a lot of jazz, and only jazz. I lived in a censored world until I was 10, and my dad gave me my own transistor radio. He's a real jazz buff. It got into my brain structure, I think.

Jim Freund:
I feel I should be cautious in discussing your work, since the actual story is only revealed in levels as one continues reading. And for all the high-tech nature of what's occurring, what has occurred is =extremely= human and character driven. Hoping this is not a non-sequitor, who would you say your antecedents are.

Kathleen Goonan:
I can only say that my antecedents are pretty much all I've read, seen, and heard. Since about all I did when young was read, this puts things on more of a print basis. I've been realizing lately that I read a LOT of fantasy, fairy tales, etc., and of course all the usual children's classics. Graduated into Chaucer, Romantic lit, Blake--still fantastic.

Patrick O'Leary:
See, Kathy, I think that jazz is reflected in your work--in unobvious ways. Maybe you got hardwired. There's a play with structure and narrative, a freewheeling quality, a sense of freedom, of delving deeper into things. A fearlessness which I envy and admire. We rarely hear how other mediums affect writers--that's why I asked. There's music in your prose. Ideas, too, of course:) But that weird music I hear when I read you attracts me. This sounds a bit pompous..:)

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick, nice compliments! Thanks. I always listen to music when I write but I fear that it's bland stuff, because anything very interesting is too engaging. Still, it has a rhythm.

Jim Freund:
For all the influence of the fantastic literature, your writing is also very high-tech, hard sf. It reminds me (in more than one way) of Delany. Have you read much of him?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, I like Delany a lot, of course. Half of Dhalgren, like everyone . And a lot of the shorter works. I like his litcrit most of all, strangely enough.

Patrick O'Leary:
Can I asked "How were you 'censored' until age ten? That sounds like an Oprah question:)

Jim Freund:
For me, QCJ has resonances of Dhalgren and The Einstein Intersection. Here's a definite non-sequitor--why Ohio?

Kathleen Goonan:
I was born in Cincinnati, and for some reason Cincinnati rose up and grabbed me 35 years later. I guess the real answer is that I loved it there, and I wanted to revisit it. (I had a nice childhood . . . ). My Grandparents lived in Miamisburg, where I set the QCJ neo-shaker community (they are trying to hide out from nanotech). Ohio also seems to lack its fair share of Sf treatments. It's always NY or LA.

Patrick O'Leary:
Talked with Delany twice. Nice man. Intimidating intellect. I couldn't grasp half his references. Semiotics? What's that, etc? Still, I liked THEY FLY AT CIRON, THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION, etc. When people ask about influences I always wonder how does it come out the other end? Do influences really tell us much about a writer? Why does everyone assume writers are only influenced by other writers? What about Aunt Mabel?:)

Jim Freund:
Patrick, I don't think works have to be related to other works, but they do have resonances. For you it might be music. For me, it's frequently other writers. I think art resonates is all, and I'm fascinated by that.

Kathleen Goonan:
Last summer a jazz radio interview show host from San Diego called me out of the blue and I "appeared" on his show. He had the same kind of cross-resonance questions. All arts are the distillation of thought/experience, and that's what I like--intensity and focus.

Jim Freund:
Does living in Florida do anything for your writing? (The Hemingway references?)

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, I must say that Florida hasn't done much except provide me with a nice flat place to write. It takes a while for Place to filter into my writing strata. I'm sure FL will figure in the next year or so. Hemingway is an important part of The American Arts, which I tried to highlight in QCJ.

Patrick O'Leary:
There's a scene in Queen City Jazz--a boy marooned in a High School in the middle of a river, who collects giant bees. I felt as if I had been given the privilege to eavesdrop on another person's dream--Stunning. I always wanted to ask--where'd that image come from? What does it mean to you?

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick, I went to school K-2 in a wonderful 19th century School Building which held all 12 grades. It now perches on the edge of interstate 75. The school and the gymnasium are part of my memories (what are all these lines on the floor??) I went back there when I did a signing. The administrator had been in my class. She remembered me. She had my picture. Weird. Also, my Dad told me that I-75, right there, was once a canal. So I filled it in with the New Ohio River and returned it to its historic significance.

Jim Freund:
There's such a rich blend of history/arts/science/travelogue in your writing. What kind of research have you needed to do?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, a plethora of research. I carry large bags of books wherever I go for years on end. I read all the pop science mags of course, and science news, and all the great recent Science by Scientists books available. I've travelled a lot, sold a lot of travel pieces (mostly to the Washington Post), and for each book I have a constellation of subjects which all seem to gel.

Patrick O'Leary:
Thanks Kathy. Strange to see our past change. I always ask writers I respect this: What is the most difficult thing for you? Characters? Plot? Just getting it out? You know...(Hi, Ellen!)

Kathleen Goonan:
For QCJ, it was Shakers, nanotech, pheromones (bees and flowers), Cinti history, jazz, American literature, comics, visual artists, and kind of an exploded literary form. At the time I was immersed in litcrit stuff.

Jim Freund:
How's about your research on the blues and African-American history?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, for MB I had a lot of sources. Takayumi Tatsumi (I hope I got his name right) advised me to read TERRIBLE HONESTY, Mongrel Manhattan in the 1920's. The first real influx of African American culture into mainstream white culture via the Harlem Renaissance. THE LAND WHERE THE BLUES BEGAN was another wonderful source. The author, Alan Lomax, visited the south with his dad, who made a lot of the first Smithsonian blues recordings . . . Alan returned in the 40's and 50's and had his own stories to tell about Southern Black history, Parchman Farm (another great book was WORSE THAN SLAVERY, a history of the Mississippi Prison Farm). THE POWER OF BLACK MUSIC is a more academic study. And so on. Lots of great stuff and more all the time.

Kathleen Goonan:
I suppose I'd say plot is most difficult. Mississippi Blues was great in that regard, because it's a picaresque river trip and geography helped a lot. I think plot should be invisible, and mine often are .

Patrick O'Leary:
When you say "My plots are invisible" you mean...? What? No car chases?:)

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick, I've had a hard time with the overt "plotiness" which seems to be a standard feature in sf short literature, at least. I just think it should be subtle. Not hit you on the head. Car chases are okay . . . but SUBTLE car chases . Car chases and such like are kind of "busy work" timewasters.

Kathleen Goonan:
I'm just saying that a lot of my plots might seem less than visible to readers demanding obvious plots. I'm not bragging about this; I think a writer ought to master a lot of different forms. I've learned plots; they're just not my forte.

Patrick O'Leary:
SUBTLE car chases sounds like a whole new genre! If anyone can do it you can, Kathy.

Jim Freund:
I've heard some recordings with Lomax hosting--great stuff. Fascinating. Do you play any instruments?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, following in the footsteps of my father, I played alto sax for a year in high school. He played jazz saxophone and toured occupied Germany with his army buddies. He also saw every jazz great you can imagine in small clubs. After a year I switched to the trombone. Smaller, you know. A simple thing. I play the piano somehwhat--played a lot of Joplin for a while while working on QCJ. I also sang in a madrigal group for a time. And in coffeehouses, like everyone, with my guitar.

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick, a challenge--Subtle Car Chase genre invention. Bet you'd be good at it too.

Patrick O'Leary:
Forgive me, I must tuck my boys in. Kathleen Ann Goonan is The Real Thing. A Writer who matters. Take care all.

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick, many thanks for dropping by. And I'd say that O'Leary is a writer of fascinating books, such as DOOR NUMBER THREE and THE GIFT--one of the best books of the year according to PW.

Jim Freund:
Patrick will be the guest on Hour of the Wolf (my radio program) on January 17, and Kathleen on Feb. 7. Official plug (and boast).

Jim Freund:
Are you into folk music all?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, had to reconnect. I see you're a fan of SteeleyeSpan, and I was for a while, and of Sandy Denny and a group my friends called The Incredibly Bad String Band whenever I played them, which was often. Around '64 I started listening to Peter Paul and Mary; noticed the writers. Went to the Smithsonian with my cousin to listen to some of the originals, like Woody Guthrie. We were too young. Laughed too much. Were thrown out. I'm very into folk music, or used to be.

Kathleen Goonan:
There's been a great resurgence in acoustic music in the past few years. I enjoy it, when I get a chance to listen.

Jim Freund:
Hmmph! I just opened my show last week with 30 minutes of The Incredible String Band. Wonderful stuff, despite your friends. Given this background, might we see a third book called Florida Folk? (sorry)

Kathleen Goonan:
Patrick and I are both great fans of Van Morrison. I think he's seeing Van in NYC. I'm very envious. I saw him in a small club in San Francisco about 20 years ago.

Kathleen Goonan:
Hmmm. Florida Folk. To tell you the truth, there's a local station, WMNF, that's very active in promoting the music. Of course, in my books, Florida is drowned, but I could make a floating Key West.

Jim Freund:
Yeah, I saw Morrison about that time in NYC at an Irish club. It's thanks to that concert that Patrick is coming to NY, and therefore my show.

Kathleen Goonan:
It's kind of funny how I've sequed into appreciating Music Without Words in the past few years. I liked jazz well enough when I was younger, but now I find it much more interesting than when I was playing folk guitar.

Jim Freund:
The idea of an Enlivened Key West boggles the mind. What is the situation of Las Vegas in your books?

Kathleen Goonan:
Jim, we don't know what's happened to Las Vegas, but a nanotech-enlivened Las Vegas boggles the mind. Blaze stops in Salt Lake City via the train, and goes to a very different LA in Mississippi Blues. But Las Vegas . . . it's already pretty strange.

Jim Freund:
I think there's a serious resurgence of interest in jazz nowadays, and I couldn't be more pleased about that. A number of new clubs and venues are popping up in NYC at least.

Kathleen Goonan:
I think that people are becoming more interested in jazz, which for a while seemed like it might be a dying artform. You have to have mastered an instrument in order to play jazz, which is not true of rock. When I was a kid my Dad would say, "recognize that? It's Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (or whatever). In this way I learned about variations on a theme.

Jim Freund:
That's an interesting distinction you made jazz & rock. So few rock musicians have mastered their instruments, and those that have frequently get involved in jazz. Zappa particularly comes to mind.

Jim Freund:
I daresay Las Vegas is already Enlivened. That's what prompted the question. Tell me a bit about BoT, which I'm sorry to say I haven't read yet. (Or I'm glad to say it--that means I've got the experience to look forward to.)

Kathleen Goonan:
The Bones of Time is about Hawaiian history, the nature of consciousness, spacetime mathematics, and cloning. Around 2015, a Hawaiian street kid "sees" Kaiulani, Hawaii's last princess. She died at 23, a year after Hawaii was illegally annexed by the U.S. (Congress very recently made a Lengthy Official Apology.) An international consortium is building a near-lightspeed ship, but all research is stalled--they don't know how to do it. . . .

Kathleen Goonan:
The kid, Cen Kalakaua, grows up to be a gifted mathematician, and figures out how to get to Kaiulani in the "multiuniverse." The Hawaiian Homeland Movement clones Kamehameha, the king who united the islands in the 1700s. There is a long chase, some of it in cars, through Hong Kong, China, Tibet, Nepal, and Thailand. I've been to all those places, except China and Tibet, so I used those experiences in the book. An interesting result of The Bones of Time was that it connected me with the REAL Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement. They've linked to my web page and I get all kinds of fascinating legal information from them.

Kathleen Goonan:
Penrose's theory of the non-computational basis of consciousness plays a part in the book, along with all kinds of physics. Greg Benford told me he enjoyed it, so maybe I got some of the physics right.

Jim Freund:
Have you studied any science formally? Do you confer with anyone else to check your science?

Kathleen Goonan:
I didn't like "science" much when I was a kid. I love it now. My husband has a degrees in chemistry and medicine, so I can bounce ideas off of him. The idea of using the DNA of bacteria as a communication device, as happens in the flower cities of QCJ and MB, came from a conversation from him about What "They're" Doing With Bacteria (ten years ago). My father is an engineer, and is extremely well-informed on all kinds of subjects. He witnessed a nanoscale "machine" at the Naval Observatory not too many years ago. Steve Brown, of SF Eye fame, has suggested that I do a "Weird Science" web column for a page a friend of ours (a bookseller, Mike Nally, at Cosmicat.com) is putting together. It's the weird stuff I like.

Jim Freund:
Can you elaborate a bit--what is a "nanoscale machine"?

Kathleen Goonan:
"Nano" just means very small, and nanotechnology, Eric Drexler's word, refers to molecular or even atomic-sized machines or manipulation of matter. There is presently a lot of research going on in this area. A good site for such information is nanothinc. Drexler postulates, in ENGINES OF CREATION, his first book, a functioning nanotech environment that influences everything from medicine to manufacturing to architecture. I took all those ideas to what I saw as being their extreme limit in the world of QUEEN CITY JAZZ. I also postulated the existence of nanotech "plagues of thought," which can be airborne and infect the victim with preprogrammed thoughts--kind of like memes. Powerful vectors of thought, which can control viewpoint and action.

Jim Freund:
Cool. (What else can I say? -) Have you ever considered yourself a cyberpunk (or whatever) writer?

Kathleen Goonan:
Paul Di Fillipo coined the term "Ribofunk," after DNA/RNA and put me in that category. I'm pretty much post cyberpunk, I'd say . . . my characters aren't very tough, for one thing and information is processed organically rather than with the machines we use now.

Jim Freund:
Did you do any time as a entemologist?

Kathleen Goonan:
I studied a lot of information about bees when writing QCJ. They are fascinating creatures. Their vision is extremely refined, and their sense of direction is from their own polarization of the sun. In addition, of course, they use some of the thousands of naturally occurring pheromones to communicate very complex messages among themselves. I haven't progressed much beyond bees .

Jim Freund:
Hey, Ribofunk could even be a kind of music! We're about out of time, so let me throw a couple of last questions at you. Will there be a third book in this series, and what are you working on now, or what's due out?

Kathleen Goonan:
Bees also, of course, communicate via "dance;" patterns of movement which tell where and how far away their sisters can find food.

Kathleen Goonan:
Thus in QCJ I made the connection between the Shaker's dances, which were spontaneous at first, then formalized, and the dances of bees.

Jim Freund:
I have my day job at a science museum, and we have our own hive. Great to watch at lunch.

Kathleen Goonan:
I learned too late that the Cincinnat Zoo has an astounding hive. Too late to go visit it, that is, but not too late to use it in the book . The book has actually grown into what I'm calling a Nanotech Quartet. The final two books, CRESCENT CITY RHAPSODY and an untitled fourth, will be published by the new Avon EOS line.

Jim Freund:
Well, I must say I'll be waiting with bated breath for those -- the first two have utterly fascinated me, and brought back some of the feelings that first drew me to sf. Thanks so much for being here (and in advance for being on my radio show. You've covered art, history, science, and provided a great read.

Kathleen Goonan:
I think I disconnected without realizing it. CCR will begin in the near-future, and show internationally how the world of QCJ and MB comes about. The final book will connect with the characters from MB, though I'm not sure how much I'll use them, and bring all the issues to a conclusion. Jim, thanks a lot for having me. I've had fun . . . it was nice for Patrick O'Leary to drop by too. He's always lively.

Jim Freund:
Indeed he is. Thanks Again!

Kathleen Goonan: I'm leaving now--"see you" on the radio.

Jim Freund:
And to all, thanks for being here. This is the last OMNI Visions chat of the year, but Ellen has already started lining up some wonderful folk for Ed & I for next year, starting with Joe Lansdale on Jan. 8 discussing Bad Chili, and Gwynneth Jones the next week. Happy Solstice and New Year to all.

^*Edited for spelling, question order and context; On-Line chat instructions removed.

Last Update 11/10/98